Initiation vs. Mysticism

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Ichinen	Initiation vs. Mysticism	Lead	[-]
Posts: 78 (07/16/05 06:58:30) Gaian Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Initiation vs. Mysticism An initiate is not the same as a mystic. Being an initiate having an intuitive comprehension of what reason cannot explain is a very deep process; it is a slow transformation of the spirit and of the body, and it can lead to the exercise of superior abilities, even to immortality. But it is secret, intimate; it does not show itself externally; it is modest, lucid, detached. That is why initiates do not indulge in mysticism. For them, a mystic is a slave, a site of the manifestation of the numinous, through which site the signs of a secret can be observed. The initiate encourages the mystic and uses him as you might use a telephone, to establish long-distance contact, or as a chemist might use litmus paper, to detect the action of a particular substance. The mystic is useful, because he is conspicuous. He broadcasts himself. Initiates, on the contrary, are recognizable only to one another. It is they who control the forces that mystics undergo. In this sense there is no difference between the possession experienced by the cavalos and the ecstasies of Saint Theresa of Avila or Saint John of the Cross. Mysticism is a degenerate form of contact with the divine, whereas initiation is the fruit of long askesis of mind and heart. Mysticism is a democratic, if not demagogic, phenomenon; initiation is aristocratic. ~ from Umberto Eco Foucault's Pendulum Adventure lies ahead for us all, without doubt. The crisis is enormous in every direction, but our eyes are opening to solutions and help is coming to us from other dimensions as fast as we are open to receiving it. Our planet and all the multi-dimensional universe is alive and on the side of those who want to keep themselves and all of it healthy and happy! ~ Elisabet Sahtouris
jcldragon	Re: Initiation vs. Mysticism	#1	[-]
Posts: 3490 (07/20/05 07:23:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	~examines his grain, because something ran against it~ At first look this could be considered some of that "My Guru is better than your Guru" stuff. The quoted author appears to have an agenda, and seems to think that things like Buddhism represent a lesser Path. The issue seems to revolve around passive & active approaches to the same thing. Mysticism is passive, in that one observes with detachment the processes of Life, gaining a perspective that transcends the Ego. Whereas Initiation is active, involving one in the process of Creation. Even the Mahayana Schools of Buddhism, with all their esoteric doctrines & occult practices, eschew the practice of Magick. They basicly take the position that applying the Cosmic Laws through the subtle planes to effect transformation of Material conditions, is a process that can only re-enforce the Illusion of Ego, and therefore hinder Realization. The Western Traditions go the other way, teaching that the practice of using Magick, provides the experiences that give one a working knowledge of the processes of Creation, and thereby effect an alignment of consciousness with Universal Will. I find considerable irony in this. On the one hand, Mystics frequently know all about how it all is, but don't know how the Knowledge can be applied. On the other hand, people who work with Magick frequently know all about how to make things happen, but lack perspective about what is actually worth doing. I've found that exposing Wiccans to Mystical & Buddhist thought, will put them in the perfect mental state for practicing Magick. Similarly, when Mystics grasp how occult practices operate, awesome things begin happening. It is very like the relationship between a battery & a circuit. Mysticism is like the battery, storing up a huge resevoir of potential energy. Magick is like the circuit, that releases energy into manefestation, and does the work. If you throw a penny enough times, you will get equal amounts of heads & tails. However, sometimes the penny will land on its edge, and stay there...
Valerian	Re: Initiation vs. Mysticism	#2	[-]
Posts: 25 (09/09/05 11:32:42) Ha Ha Ha Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hmm... Two very thought provoking posters. What I find difficult is that I thought the two were complementary to each other. I descibe myself as a mystic simply because it baffles people and they don't know what comments to make. Not very helpful of me, but if they are genuinely seeking then I do my best to point people in whatever direction seems most suited to them. I think the problem with postings can be that people don't speak the same language - the fall of the tower of Babel! I found these definitions of mystic on the Net mystic Pronunciation: (mis'tik), [key] adj. 1. involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content, as certain religious ceremonies and art; spiritually significant; ethereal. 2. of the nature of or pertaining to mysteries known only to the initiated: mystic rites. 3. of occult character, power, or significance: a mystic formula. 4. of obscure or mysterious character or significance. 5. of or pertaining to mystics or mysticism. n. 1. a person who claims to attain, or believes in the possibility of attaining, insight into mysteries transcending ordinary human knowledge, as by direct communication with the divine or immediate intuition in a state of spiritual ecstasy. 2. a person initiated into religious mysteries. Pasted from <www.factmonster.com/ipd/A0548200.html> Seems to me that we have to ensure we are all singing from the same song sheet. I was never any good at singing in tune, though!
Jake	MvsI	#3	[-]
Posts: 115 (09/09/05 12:43:18) Beep Beep! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The words used in the excerpt are just labels describing to different things. The "initiate" sounds like someone who is very in tune, very intuative, that everything they do is so innate that there is no acknowleged occult whatsoever. The "mystic" sees the beauty in his outlook, disects it's whole into parts in order to examine, shares it with others, and tries to teach. I wouldn't say one is better than the other. I know such an "initiate" who is really just very intelligent, spiritual man who wants nothing to do with the occult due to his spirituality, yet has such finesse, such grace, that he is who he is. I personally prefer mysticism because I feel it is colorful, expressive, and represents more my sense of art. I think initiate art would be more literal, real-life art, like someone who dresses well in the traditional sense. And then mysticism is more impressionist, modern, postmodern, exploritory. An initiate is more constant and about refining, a mystic is everexpanding. That's my personal interpretation of the piece, and my opinion on the two terms as described.
Jake	Further	#4	[-]
Posts: 115 (09/09/05 12:54:12) Beep Beep! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To further expand on this idea I think of an instance where me and my friend argued over the placement of a computer desk. It was L-Shaped and had a connected printer stand on the right side. I originally wanted it to be to the left of the hallway door. This made it so that the right hand side printer stand jetted out into the room next to the door. To me this was exciting and created a more exciting energy to the room. My friend said that it should go in a corner of the room so that both sides lined up with the wall, and as he thought "looked right." At the time I accepted his thought that my idea was "wrong," but looking back it was just a different way of looking at things. The other way seems more practical, where as this I feel opens new possibilities. There are other times where I think he has solid advice, where there is confusion in me. He's good at what he does, and I'm working on what I do, so we'll see.
Toltec888	Re: Further	#5	[-]
Posts: 100 (09/09/05 20:11:29) Beep Beep! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Main Entry: 1initiate Pronunciation: i-'ni-shE-"At Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -ated; -ating Etymology: Late Latin initiatus, past participle of initiare, from Latin, to induct, from initium 1 : to cause or facilitate the beginning of : set going <initiate a program of reform> <enzymes that initiate fermentation> 2 : to induct into membership by or as if by special rites 3 : to instruct in the rudiments or principles of something : INTRODUCE synonym see BEGIN - initiator /-"A-t&r/ noun 3 entries found for mystic. To select an entry, click on it. mystic[1,adjective]mystic[2,noun]Mystic *************************************** Main Entry: 1mystic Pronunciation: 'mis-tik Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English mistik, from Latin mysticus of mysteries, from Greek mystikos, from mystEs initiate 1 : MYSTICAL 1a 2 : of or relating to mysteries or esoteric rites : OCCULT 3 : of or relating to mysticism or mystics 4 a : MYSTERIOUS b : OBSCURE, ENIGMATIC c : inducing a feeling of awe or wonder d : having magical properties ************************** Understanding words and there meaning is very important and for the sake of discussion the above is derived from Merriam-Webster. In relation to the topic my impression is you are trying to express the idea of an initiate, as a person or persons who are ultimately responsible for a methodology and the mystic as the practitioner or follower of what the initiate teaches. The source of your reference is a book which presents a point of view........ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum_(book) In relation to the opinion presented I tend to disagree that initiate's (as defined above), in relation to developing awareness is aristocratic. Rather, the initiate having been born with knowledge others are not born with have unique responsibilities. And as is presented in History serve mankind by presenting what they understand (presumably to the adept, mystic and others). I have not read the book but from what I understand of it there seems to be a suggestion that this is not happening. Ichinen, could you perhaps elaborate in respect to your conclusions on the meaning of these comments? Sincerely I feel that while the topic is controversial it should make for an interesting discussion. But as has been made clear, we need to define our terms more so there is no misunderstanding. Any thoughts? Man is infinite God is more
Ichinen	Re: Further	#6	[-]
Posts: 78 (09/10/05 15:56:11) Gaian Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Provacative comments, everyone - thank you! *Quote:* Ichinen, could you perhaps elaborate in respect to your conclusions on the meaning of these comments? Toltec, I tend towards your view that *Quote:* the initiate having been born with knowledge others are not born with have unique responsibilities. And as is presented in History serve mankind by presenting what they understand (presumably to the adept, mystic and others). Actually, I have come to no concrete conclusions. The quote was given to me at one point during my awakening, training, and (dare I say?) initiation process. I posted it, hoping to receive your feedback. It's interesting to see that the etymology of the words is similar: Initiate - to induct and Mystic - from mystEs initiate Hmm... So in some ways, the initiate can also be seen as the beginner, and the mystic the one striking awe and wonder in the heart of the neophyte. Quite a circle dance, eh? Adventure lies ahead for us all, without doubt. The crisis is enormous in every direction, but our eyes are opening to solutions and help is coming to us from other dimensions as fast as we are open to receiving it. Our planet and all the multi-dimensional universe is alive and on the side of those who want to keep themselves and all of it healthy and happy! ~ Elisabet Sahtouris
The Heretic	Re: Further	#7	[-]
Posts: 2 (09/11/05 05:14:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Greetings, Definitions are a great thing and definately a starting point. But I personally think it's most important to look the individuals, currently and historically, who carried these titles and let their actions speak as to what they are / were. Many of the Mystics of history also sometimes used or practiced "magic" but simply had different names for it or ideas of what they felt it was. The Buddha had the ability of Iddhi, although he cautioned against it's use. (although some of his other followers used it as a demonstration of ability). In more ancient Jewish mysticism, specifically Bereshit mysticism, there was a document written called the Sefer Yezirah (The book of Creation) that appears to have been written some time in the first of second century C.E. Although it is seen as a book for guided meditations in contemplation of the Divine Creation, it is also for the meditator to focus and strenghten their concentrations in an effort to perform works of creation themselves. History,legend, or myth has a couple of Jewish mystics in the 4th century meditating on the Sefer Yezirah for long periods and then creating calfs and golems. Now depending upon an individual's point of view this can been seen as anything from the fantastic abilities of a practiced master, to Divine gifts, or the works of Satan. According to biblical history Eashoa' (Jesus) worked "miracles" including changing water to wine, walking on water, controlling the weather, and even raising the dead. However ,once again, depending upon ones point of view he was a myth, a very gifted Mystic, Prophet of God, Son of God, or God himself in human form. However mankind has spent a great deal of time arguing and fighting wars over a proper definition of who and/or what his nature was vs simply trying to follow the lessons he spoke and example he lived. That is of course unless you are someone who leans more toward the myth category.
Toltec888	Re: Further	#8	[-]
Posts: 100 (09/11/05 20:05:48) Beep Beep! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* When the Light of the Endless was drawn in the form of a straight line in the Void... it was not drawn and extended immediately downwards, indeed it extended slowly that is to say, at first the Line of Light began to extend and at the very start of its extension in the secret of the Line it was drawn and shaped into a wheel, perfectly circular all around. The seemingly strait path of nature ultimately being circular? *Quote:* A quantum particle can be described by a waveform which is the plot of a mathematical function related to the probability of finding the particle at a given location at any time. If the particle is confined to a box, it turns out that the wave does not fall to zero at the walls of the box, but has a finite probability of being found outside it. This means that a quantum particle is able to penetrate, or "tunnel through" its confining boundaries. This remarkable property is called the tunnel effect. Punctuated Equilibriumsuggest a circular nature, in that in relation to humans there would occur such evolutionary spurts as well. But of course not everyone agrees with evolution correct? Does God eat? In the Book of Genesis God creates man and informs him he can eat anything except of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So given that God created man in his own image how does the need to eat fit in? Could it be that we are developing, evolving and/or orienting in relation to an ideal? Absolutely We are evolving even in relation to Christianity, becoming a better reflections of what God intends for his creation through the processs of nature. *Quote:* Actually, I have come to no concrete conclusions. The quote was given to me at one point during my awakening, training, and (dare I say?) initiation process. I posted it, hoping to receive your feedback. *Quote:* But I personally think it's most important to look the individuals, currently and historically, who carried these titles and let their actions speak as to what they are / were. My impression is that prophets are people which were born who millions of years from now, what they could do (miracles), would be something that anyone alive millions of years from now can do. This is not to say they are from the future but rather they are favorable mutations. Able to process information more efficiently in relation to parameters, which in mans development are innate and related to a destiny. One In which, ultimately we develop the capacity to go beyond what today is defined as finite but boundless. Any thoughts? Man is infinite God is more
jcldragon	Re: Further	#9	[-]
Posts: 3490 (09/12/05 05:22:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You could say mutations, but I'm sure you know that there is a point in development where the changes are self-initiated. Humans all have at least latent potentials for manefesting all of the fabled powers of the Adepts. Those potentials all come into play, once one realizes that evolution can be a conscious process. Some of that conscious & deliberate evolution can be initiated by physical practices, like Yoga, and the Martial Arts. Some are initiated by mental disciplines like meditation, and chakra opening exercises, (such as my Mental Yoga/Occult Exercises). And then there is the final process of the refinement of character. Internal Serenity, alters all of the vibrations within you, and also influences the vibrations of those around you, and that can change the whole world...
raintreewolf	Re: Further	#10	[-]
Posts: 449 (09/12/05 11:45:18) What's that smell? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting Quote...makes one stop and think and maybe put a little twitch in the neck and eye when doing so. It reads well and convinciningly enough....but it does not ring with complete truth. It is a clever half truth along with some ego stroking and possible ego masterbation as well. The mystic would never attempt to box in such awarenesses and the initiate should have been taught better than that but if the Aristicrat has enough money and is being initiated into a line of intitiates, who would say no. This quote does not reflect the best of possibilities.....that one begets the other and both are potential doors to inlightenment but niether arrive completely alone they must cross paths at some point. Here it is most apparent which is the egg and which is the chicken. But I must say...it is a rather clever ad of solicitation.....attract the economically and socially superior....fascilitate some form of alchemical transformation in them and their hand becomes your hand. It's an odd Quote, I think. Looks superior but did not come from the superior nature. Those are my thoughts
Ichinen	Re: Further	#11	[-]
Posts: 78 (09/12/05 12:45:48) Gaian Dragon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Raintreewolf, my sentiments exactly - I just couldn't seem to express the words. Now I understand that the motivation behind giving me that quote was an attempt at intimidation... Thank you very much! Adventure lies ahead for us all, without doubt. The crisis is enormous in every direction, but our eyes are opening to solutions and help is coming to us from other dimensions as fast as we are open to receiving it. Our planet and all the multi-dimensional universe is alive and on the side of those who want to keep themselves and all of it healthy and happy! ~ Elisabet Sahtouris
Toltec888	Re: Further	#12	[-]
Posts: 100 (09/12/05 13:38:53) Beep Beep! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The quote is actually from the book we have been discussing raintreewolf....... *Quote:* The book begins with a long quote in Hebrew, which comes from page seven of Philip Gruberger's book The Kabbalah: A Study of the Ten Luminous Emanations from Rabbi Isaac Luria with the Commentaries Sufficient for the Beginner Vol. II, published in Jerusalem by the Research Center of Kabbalah in 1973. The quotation translates into English as follows: From there the article provides the first quote presented in my post above. As is clear its a translation, which in my experience, often does not offer an exacting interpretation. *Quote:* It's an odd Quote, I think. Looks superior but did not come from the superior nature. It does make a person think. At the same time understanding what we are exploring in relation to Geometry, does suggest that just a circle would not represent a clear enough picture. *Quote:* You could say mutations, but I'm sure you know that there is a point in development where the changes are self-initiated. Humans all have at least latent potentials for manifesting all of the fabled powers of the Adepts. Those potentials all come into play, once one realizes that evolution can be a conscious process. I can agree that the word itself (mutation) is often related to in relation to physical development (standing rather than crawling from instance when walking). In this case my impression is the manner of change (or mutation) will effectively offer mankind an understanding of his or her emotional states one whose meaning is more concrete than often observed. A Prophet is akin in ability to a person in a dark room with a flashlight as opposed to one without one (applying this model for understanding prophets). *Quote:* Some of that conscious & deliberate evolution can be initiated by physical practices, like Yoga, and the Martial Arts. Some are initiated by mental disciplines like meditation, and chakra opening exercises, (such as my Mental Yoga/Occult Exercises). And then there is the final process of the refinement of character. Internal Serenity, alters all of the vibrations within you, and also influences the vibrations of those around you, and that can change the whole world... Agreed and in relation to the analogy provided above the prophet provides the means of understanding (enlightenment) not only for finding an exit in a room, but also the means of leaving a room without doors (quantum tunneling). If memory serves it was Buddha who often presented that gift as an example of what was possible. It is also alleged as a capacity which, was once standard training to those classified as Naguals. Any thoughts? Man is infinite God is more
raintreewolf	Re: Further	#13	[-]
Posts: 449 (09/12/05 16:05:46) What's that smell? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* It does make a person think. At the same time understanding what we are exploring in relation to Geometry, does suggest that just a circle would not represent a clear enough picture. Point well taken. LOL. One must experience the process to see the complete potential and to explore the possibility that there are more dementions to a circle if looked at even if from just a side angle rather than perhaps the straight on. This is Christianity way of today verses the Mystery school way. When one considers the souce to be of high standing ( through meritt) one can even better assess such quotes as to what the meaning and intention is based on what lies with-in ones own hermetic seal. In this respect such quotes become keys to unlocking the hermeticly sealed... ( ?) maybe?
raintreewolf	Re: Further	#14	[-]
Posts: 449 (09/12/05 16:17:09) What's that smell? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So is it the book Foucault's Pendulum that you all are discussing? What book are you refering to?

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